[Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 166, Issue 12
Johnny Billquist
bqt at softjar.se
Sun Nov 5 17:48:10 EST 2017
Ah.
That sound like a simh problem. The tape file itself have one of a few
different formats, none of them even keep any CRC (at least none of the
ones I can think of right now).
The backing file storage just have the tape records. And obviously,
since the same backing file storage is used on both emulated tape
drives, there is obviously nothing wrong with the file.
Any CRC indication is purely made up in simh. And that is where you get
the error indication. So I guess someone needs to dig into the emulation
of the Massbus tape drives.
And to directly answer your question - no I didn't know of any
difference, and was not aware of this problem. Maybe someone is, but I
haven't seen/heard anything, and noone have said anything here so far
either.
Johnny
On 2017-11-05 20:19, Peter Allan wrote:
> Quite right Johnny. I obviously was not clear about the problem.
>
> Essentially, when trying to read a tape file using a simulated TE16 tape
> drive (on a simulated VAX 780 running VMS 3.0), I get CRC errors, yet
> when I try to read the same tape file with a simulated TS11 tape drive,
> it works perfectly. My question is - is there any explanation for this
> different behaviour?
>
> Peter Allan
>
> On 5 November 2017 at 17:00, <simh-request at trailing-edge.com
> <mailto:simh-request at trailing-edge.com>> wrote:
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> 1. Re: VMS 1.5 installable? (Johnny Billquist)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 12:55:16 +0100
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se>>
> To: simh at trailing-edge.com <mailto:simh at trailing-edge.com>
> Subject: Re: [Simh] VMS 1.5 installable?
> Message-ID: <6a250afb-9965-c07a-284b-3d25d8bfb76f at softjar.se
> <mailto:6a250afb-9965-c07a-284b-3d25d8bfb76f at softjar.se>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Well, obviously there are differences. The TE16 is a Massbus tape drive.
> The TS11 is a Unibus thing. Totally different. Both in how they connect,
> how the programming model is, the exact layout of registers, and of
> course then, through which bus interface you program them.
>
> In essence, they have nothing in common, apart from that they both use
> the same physical tape medium in real life.
>
> Johnny
>
> On 2017-11-05 11:39, Peter Allan wrote:
> > Thanks to Wilm, I now have VMS 1.5 up and running. This is new
> territory
> > for me since my first exposure to VAXen was in late 1982 when the
> > version was something like 3.0, or just possibly the last version of
> > 2.x. (I didn't pay attention to such things back then. If I could
> write
> > Fortran programs, I was happy.)
> >
> > However, the fact that I could complete the installation of VMS
> 3.0 by
> > using a simulated TS11 tape drive when it failed with a TE16
> drive has
> > got me wondering if there is a bug in simh. Surely on a real
> system you
> > could use a real TS11 or TE16 drive? Obviously there is no
> density on a
> > simulated tape file, but is there any other difference between
> the two
> > simulated tape drives that explains what is going on?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Peter Allan
> >
> >
> > On 25 October 2017 at 14:08, Peter Allan <petermallan at gmail.com
> <mailto:petermallan at gmail.com>
> > <mailto:petermallan at gmail.com <mailto:petermallan at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Wilm, I will try that out. I doubt I would have thought of
> > using a TS11 rather than a TE16 without your advice.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > On 25 October 2017 at 12:39, Wilm Boerhout
> <wboerhout at gmail.com <mailto:wboerhout at gmail.com>
> > <mailto:wboerhout at gmail.com <mailto:wboerhout at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > Your approach is correct, I have regularly used it over
> the past
> > weeks to bring up VMS 1.0.
> >
> > I also saw these CRC errors on restore sometimes. There
> are two
> > ways around this:
> >
> > 1. Mount the 3.0 tape on a generic (newer) VAX/VMS
> system, use
> > $MOUNT/OVER=ID and copy the LIBRARY and OPTIONAL
> savesets to a
> > (RP06-sized) disk in the [0,0] directory. In a later
> step, $
> > mount
> > /foreign this disk, and point the installer to this
> disk as
> > the source.
> > 2. On your 3.0 system just booted with just the REQUIRED
> > saveset, use a
> > TS11 and not a TE16 tape unit in the simh config.
> Somehow this
> > worked. Also, when you use a TE16, use an explicit
> $MOU/FOR
> > /DEN=800. I forget in which version, but this also worked
> > sometimes.
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > /Wilm
> >
> >
> > Peter Allan schreef op 25-10-2017 om 13:30:
> >
> > Encouraged by all of the posting about running VMS
> 1.5 on an
> > emulated VAX 780 with simh, I have tried to do the same.
> > However, I am having a problem.
> >
> > I don't have an existing VMS 3.x system running (4.6
> is my
> > earliest), so I tried to do a VMS 3.0 installation
> using the
> > tape from uni-stuttgart which I had downloaded some
> time ago.
> >
> > I booted a VMS 4.6 system on an emulated 780 and did an
> > image restore using BACKUP of the REQUIRED saveset on the
> > VMS 3.0 installation tape to an RP06. So far, so
> good. Then
> > I booted the newly created RP06 disk, which continued the
> > installation process by attempting to restore the LIBRARY
> > saveset on the VMS 3.0 tape. However, this crashed
> with too
> > many CRC errors.
> >
> > This is where I am stuck. I could download the tape from
> > uni-stuttgart again, but is there any reason to expect a
> > better result by doing this? Can someone who has got
> this to
> > work advise me what to try next please. I have downloaded
> > the files that Christian posted, but while that has
> > standalone backup on a disk image, I need DSC to read the
> > VMS 1.5 tape (don't I?) which is the only reason that
> I was
> > trying to get VMS 3.0 working in the first place.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Peter Allan
> >
> > On 20 October 2017 at 09:43, Wilm Boerhout
> > <wboerhout at gmail.com <mailto:wboerhout at gmail.com>
> <mailto:wboerhout at gmail.com <mailto:wboerhout at gmail.com>>
> > <mailto:wboerhout at gmail.com
> <mailto:wboerhout at gmail.com> <mailto:wboerhout at gmail.com
> <mailto:wboerhout at gmail.com>>>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Matt Burke schreef op 17-10-2017 om 23:17:
> >
> > You may also want to try VAX/VMS 1.0 (or as
> close
> > as you can
> > get to it):
> >
> >
> > http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip
> <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip>
> > <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip
> <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip>>
> > <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip
> <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip>
> > <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip
> <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip>>>
> >
> > This is not taken from an original tape. It's
> > something I
> > reconstructed
> > from a disk containing early VAX/VMS source and
> > binaries. The
> > dates
> > indicate that this is earlier than VAX/VMS 1.5.
> > Hopefully someone can find an original at
> some point.
> >
> > Matt
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > Wonderful!
> >
> >
> > I now have VMS 1.0 up and running on simh
> VAX780. Does
> > anyone know
> > whereto find the Fortran installation tape for
> this system?
> >
> >
> > BTW, I also use a fine VT52 emulator I found on
> github.
> >
> >
> > /Wilm
> >
> >
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> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> ||
> Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>
>
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> End of Simh Digest, Vol 166, Issue 12
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--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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