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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13-Feb-20 20:57, Johnny Billquist
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0030dbe1-5b00-86ec-9c77-b77d77083e22@softjar.se">On
2020-02-14 01:35, Timothe Litt wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On 13-Feb-20 19:21, Johnny Billquist
wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On 2020-02-13 17:42, Clem Cole wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Clem Cole <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:clemc@ccc.com">clemc@ccc.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:clemc@ccc.com"><mailto:clemc@ccc.com></a>> wrote:
<br>
<br>
I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a PDP-6
IIRC, but it
<br>
might have been a KA10. I don't think I ever saw one
on a PDP-8/11
<br>
or Vaxen.
<br>
<br>
The more I think about it, there must have been one or two
in the mill or the machine room in MRO, but I just can not
picture them.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
As far as I know, there was no punch for the PDP-8 or PDP-11.
However, there were readers.
<br>
<br>
And the PDP-11 reader controller sat on the Unibus, so it
would not be hard to get it working on a VAX either. If that
was officially supported or not I don't know, though.
<br>
<br>
There were a bunch of PDP-11 Unibus peripherals that was never
supported on a VAX. DECtape comes to mind, as well as RK05.
<br>
<br>
Johnny
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
See my previous note.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Came to yours later...
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">The punches you mention do exist, as do
others (Not particularly common or popular):
<br>
<br>
* PDP-11: CP11-UP Punch interface for Univac 1710 Card
RDR/PUNCH
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Was that a CSS product perhaps? Even looking at the PDP-11
Peripherals handbook from 1976 don't mention it. There is only
CM11, CR11 and CD11. All three are card reader only.
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>Special Systems, California. Responsible design engineer: Bob
Edwards</p>
<p>Don't read anything into "Special Systems" - CSS just means "low
volume" - CSS would sell to anyone, though if a customer's request
seemed unique, the first (sometimes only) customer would pretty
much pay the NRE. "Low volume" is relative - in the late 80s,
line printers were CSS products.</p>
<p>Can't say much about the CP11's volume - I only saw one. I
expect it was low.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0030dbe1-5b00-86ec-9c77-b77d77083e22@softjar.se">
<br>
Haven't manage to find anything on bitsavers yet, but there are a
bunch of places to search, so I might just have missed it.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Card readers were sold and supported on
all systems thru VAX.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Thanks for clarifying that for me. I wasn't at all sure about the
VAX.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Someone wrote a DECtape driver for VAX - I
think Stan R., though it wasn't supported. DECtape controllers
are odd devices - the TD10 is reasonably smart, but the others
put realtime constraints on the drivers that could be hard to
meet. Anyhow, by the time the VAX came out, TU58 and Floppies
were cheaper and denser media.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I actually do remember seeing it. Fun thing. :-)
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">There was also an unsupported DECtape
driver for TOPS-20.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
KLs with DECtape was always only Tops-10?
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>Yup.</p>
<p>TOPS-20 had no official support for any IO bus device - except
the AN20 (ARPAnet/IMP interface). Except in that case, the
DIA/DIB20 was difficult to get on the 20 - it was standard on the
10.<br>
</p>
<p>However, several drivers for IOB devices existed. Including the
card reader/punch.</p>
<p>The issue was simply that the IOB had been superseded by MASSBUS
(for DMA devices - disk, tape) - the DF10 channels were expensive
in $ and in memory ports. For most unit record & Comm,
cheaper and less overhead to hang on the PDP-11 front end.
Unibus, and the drivers made the devices smarter (and cheaper).
E.g. The 11 handled DMA, modem control, even broadcast messaging.
And card images. IOB card readers interrupt the -10 for every
column. Even with BLKI in the interrupt locations, this was
annoying. A typical IOB controller would be several rows of
modules, plus power and cooling. Just the IOB paddle cards used
more backplane space than a Unibus SPC slot.<br>
</p>
<p>DECtape, the TD10, is an IOB (but not DMA) device. Thus, no
support. Customers who screamed loudly enough and were migrating
from TOPS-10 could make it work- at the price of a DIB20 (a full
cabinet) and a TOPS-20 source kit. When they heard the prices,
most swallowed hard and moved their data to disk or 9-Track. The
problem, of course, is that at the time there was no replacement
"personal media" on the -20 -- the FE floppies (RX01) were not
accessible to the OS, and there was no TU58 (even un-)support on
TOPS20.</p>
<p>Both university and engineering shops liked personal media -
mostly to reduce demand for and clutter on expensive disk space.
But TOPS-20 management knew better.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0030dbe1-5b00-86ec-9c77-b77d77083e22@softjar.se">
<br>
Johnny
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
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