<div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal">In order to try to understand why I am having trouble
reading a simulated tape with a simulated TE16 tape drive on a simh VAX 780, I
have tried several configurations.<span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Firstly, a point of clarification. The problem that I came
across was in finishing the installation of VMS 3.0. This was necessary in
order to be able to install VMS 1.5 using DSC2, but I have no problem with the
installation of VMS 1.5 itself. VMS 1.5 is a red herring - the problem is with
VMS 3.0.<span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I had configured a VAX 780 in simh with three RP06 disk
drives and two TE16 tape drives. I was using TE16 tape drives rather than TS11 really
just because when I was the system manager of a real 780, it had two TE16 tape
drives.<span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">All of this has been done on a host system running CentOS 5
(for simh 3.8-1) and CentOS 6 (for simh 4.0).<span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">To remind you of the problem, I started the installation of
VMS 3.0 by booting stand-alone backup and restoring a saveset from a tape that
I downloaded from the University of Stuttgart. The first phase went fine and
when I rebooted the 780, the system asked which device contained the
installation media so that it could automatically complete the installation of
VMS. I entered MTA0: and this is where things went wrong. Wilm suggested I
should trying using a TS11 drive (MSA0) rather than a TE16 drive and this did
indeed work, but this left me wondering why?<span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have tried to restore a BACKUP saveset from a tape to a
disk using several configurations. I have tried:<span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="">-<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>Two difference versions of simh, 3.8-1 and 4.0</p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="">-<span style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>Three different versions of VMS, 3.0, 4.6 and
7.3</p><p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style=""><span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="">-<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>Different simulated tapes<span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="">-<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>The two different simulated tape drives, TS11
and TE16<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The results have surprised me. <span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="">1)<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>Changing the version of simh makes no difference
to the results.<span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="">2)<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>I only get a problem in restoring a saveset from
tape when running VMS 3.0 as the operating system. Everything works fine with
VMS 4.6 and 7.3.<span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="">3)<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>I have tried different tapes, but if the system
is going to fail to do a restore operation, it does it with all of the tapes
containing BACKUP savesets that I tried.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Following a suggestion from Kevin Handy, I tried to copy the
savesets from tape to disk, but the copy failed on the VMS 3.0 system when
using a TE16 tape drive.<span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My experiments indicate that there is a problem with VMS 3.0
when using TE16 tape drives. However, this seems so unlikely, not least because
the sequence of operations that I have gone through is what hundreds (thousands
probably) of system managers must have done to install VMS 3.0 on real
hardware, including my predecessor with “my own” 780.<span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This leaves me stumped, but at least I have narrowed the
problem down and I am able to do the installation of VMS 3.0 (which lets me do
the installation of 1.5) by using a TS11 drive.<span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The only thing I can think of is to wonder if the way that
VMS handled TE16 (i.e. massbus) tape drives changed between VMS 3 and VMS 4 and that somehow there
is a bug in simh that only rears its head on the earlier version. I confess
this is a stab in the dark.<span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anyone got a bright idea about this?<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">Peter Allan<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 6 November 2017 at 10:27, Peter Allan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:petermallan@gmail.com" target="_blank">petermallan@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Thanks Johnny.<div><br></div><div>The tape file contains several BACKUP savesets - it is actually the distribution tape for VMS 3.0 - so I presume that the CRC checks are part of the BACKUP saveset.</div><div><br></div><div>I thought that I had read some BACKUP savesets (though not this tape) using a simulated TE16 drive before, but I cannot be absolutely sure, so I will do some tests.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Peter Allan</div></font></span></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 5 November 2017 at 22:48, Johnny Billquist <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bqt@softjar.se" target="_blank">bqt@softjar.se</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Ah.<br>
<br>
That sound like a simh problem. The tape file itself have one of a few different formats, none of them even keep any CRC (at least none of the ones I can think of right now).<br>
The backing file storage just have the tape records. And obviously, since the same backing file storage is used on both emulated tape drives, there is obviously nothing wrong with the file.<br>
<br>
Any CRC indication is purely made up in simh. And that is where you get the error indication. So I guess someone needs to dig into the emulation of the Massbus tape drives.<br>
<br>
And to directly answer your question - no I didn't know of any difference, and was not aware of this problem. Maybe someone is, but I haven't seen/heard anything, and noone have said anything here so far either.<br>
<br>
Johnny<span><br>
<br>
On 2017-11-05 20:19, Peter Allan wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
Quite right Johnny. I obviously was not clear about the problem.<br>
<br>
Essentially, when trying to read a tape file using a simulated TE16 tape drive (on a simulated VAX 780 running VMS 3.0), I get CRC errors, yet when I try to read the same tape file with a simulated TS11 tape drive, it works perfectly. My question is - is there any explanation for this different behaviour?<br>
<br>
Peter Allan<br>
<br></span><span>
On 5 November 2017 at 17:00, <<a href="mailto:simh-request@trailing-edge.com" target="_blank">simh-request@trailing-edge.co<wbr>m</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:simh-request@trailing-edge.com" target="_blank">simh-request@trailing-<wbr>edge.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: VMS 1.5 installable? (Johnny Billquist)<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>----------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 12:55:16 +0100<br></span>
From: Johnny Billquist <<a href="mailto:bqt@softjar.se" target="_blank">bqt@softjar.se</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:bqt@softjar.se" target="_blank">bqt@softjar.se</a>>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com" target="_blank">simh@trailing-edge.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com" target="_blank">simh@trailing-edge.com</a><wbr>><span><br>
Subject: Re: [Simh] VMS 1.5 installable?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:6a250afb-9965-c07a-284b-3d25d8bfb76f@softjar.se" target="_blank">6a250afb-9965-c07a-284b-3d25d<wbr>8bfb76f@softjar.se</a><br></span>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:6a250afb-9965-c07a-284b-3d25d8bfb76f@softjar.se" target="_blank">6a250afb-9965-c07a-284<wbr>b-3d25d8bfb76f@softjar.se</a>>><div><div class="m_-1592383772007193305h5"><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Well, obviously there are differences. The TE16 is a Massbus tape drive.<br>
The TS11 is a Unibus thing. Totally different. Both in how they connect,<br>
how the programming model is, the exact layout of registers, and of<br>
course then, through which bus interface you program them.<br>
<br>
In essence, they have nothing in common, apart from that they both use<br>
the same physical tape medium in real life.<br>
<br>
Johnny<br>
<br>
On 2017-11-05 11:39, Peter Allan wrote:<br>
> Thanks to Wilm, I now have VMS 1.5 up and running. This is new<br>
territory<br>
> for me since my first exposure to VAXen was in late 1982 when the<br>
> version was something like 3.0, or just possibly the last version of<br>
> 2.x. (I didn't pay attention to such things back then. If I could<br>
write<br>
> Fortran programs, I was happy.)<br>
><br>
> However, the fact that I could complete the installation of VMS<br>
3.0 by<br>
> using a simulated TS11 tape drive when it failed with a TE16<br>
drive has<br>
> got me wondering if there is a bug in simh. Surely on a real<br>
system you<br>
> could use a real TS11 or TE16 drive? Obviously there is no<br>
density on a<br>
> simulated tape file, but is there any other difference between<br>
the two<br>
> simulated tape drives that explains what is going on?<br>
><br>
> Cheers<br>
><br>
> Peter Allan<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 25 October 2017 at 14:08, Peter Allan <<a href="mailto:petermallan@gmail.com" target="_blank">petermallan@gmail.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:petermallan@gmail.com" target="_blank">petermallan@gmail.com</a>><br></div></div><span>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:petermallan@gmail.com" target="_blank">petermallan@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:petermallan@gmail.com" target="_blank">petermallan@gmail.com</a>><wbr>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Thanks Wilm, I will try that out. I doubt I would have thought of<br>
> using a TS11 rather than a TE16 without your advice.<br>
><br>
> Peter<br>
><br>
> On 25 October 2017 at 12:39, Wilm Boerhout<br>
<<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a>><br></span><div><div class="m_-1592383772007193305h5">
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a>>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Your approach is correct, I have regularly used it over<br>
the past<br>
> weeks to bring up VMS 1.0.<br>
><br>
> I also saw these CRC errors on restore sometimes. There<br>
are two<br>
> ways around this:<br>
><br>
> 1. Mount the 3.0 tape on a generic (newer) VAX/VMS<br>
system, use<br>
> $MOUNT/OVER=ID and copy the LIBRARY and OPTIONAL<br>
savesets to a<br>
> (RP06-sized) disk in the [0,0] directory. In a later<br>
step, $<br>
> mount<br>
> /foreign this disk, and point the installer to this<br>
disk as<br>
> the source.<br>
> 2. On your 3.0 system just booted with just the REQUIRED<br>
> saveset, use a<br>
> TS11 and not a TE16 tape unit in the simh config.<br>
Somehow this<br>
> worked. Also, when you use a TE16, use an explicit<br>
$MOU/FOR<br>
> /DEN=800. I forget in which version, but this also worked<br>
> sometimes.<br>
><br>
> HTH<br>
><br>
> /Wilm<br>
><br>
><br>
> Peter Allan schreef op 25-10-2017 om 13:30:<br>
><br>
> Encouraged by all of the posting about running VMS<br>
1.5 on an<br>
> emulated VAX 780 with simh, I have tried to do the same.<br>
> However, I am having a problem.<br>
><br>
> I don't have an existing VMS 3.x system running (4.6<br>
is my<br>
> earliest), so I tried to do a VMS 3.0 installation<br>
using the<br>
> tape from uni-stuttgart which I had downloaded some<br>
time ago.<br>
><br>
> I booted a VMS 4.6 system on an emulated 780 and did an<br>
> image restore using BACKUP of the REQUIRED saveset on the<br>
> VMS 3.0 installation tape to an RP06. So far, so<br>
good. Then<br>
> I booted the newly created RP06 disk, which continued the<br>
> installation process by attempting to restore the LIBRARY<br>
> saveset on the VMS 3.0 tape. However, this crashed<br>
with too<br>
> many CRC errors.<br>
><br>
> This is where I am stuck. I could download the tape from<br>
> uni-stuttgart again, but is there any reason to expect a<br>
> better result by doing this? Can someone who has got<br>
this to<br>
> work advise me what to try next please. I have downloaded<br>
> the files that Christian posted, but while that has<br>
> standalone backup on a disk image, I need DSC to read the<br>
> VMS 1.5 tape (don't I?) which is the only reason that<br>
I was<br>
> trying to get VMS 3.0 working in the first place.<br>
><br>
> Cheers<br>
><br>
> Peter Allan<br>
><br>
> On 20 October 2017 at 09:43, Wilm Boerhout<br>
> <<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a>><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:wboerhout@gmail.com" target="_blank">wboerhout@gmail.com</a>>>><wbr>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Matt Burke schreef op 17-10-2017 om 23:17:<br>
><br>
> You may also want to try VAX/VMS 1.0 (or as<br>
close<br>
> as you can<br>
> get to it):<br>
><br>
><br>
> <a href="http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D<wbr>782A-BE.zip</a><br>
<<a href="http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-<wbr>D782A-BE.zip</a>><br>
> <<a href="http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.9track.net/vms/BB<wbr>-D782A-BE.zip</a><br>
<<a href="http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-<wbr>D782A-BE.zip</a>>><br>
> <<a href="http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-<wbr>D782A-BE.zip</a><br>
<<a href="http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-<wbr>D782A-BE.zip</a>><br>
> <<a href="http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.9track.net/vms/BB<wbr>-D782A-BE.zip</a><br>
<<a href="http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-<wbr>D782A-BE.zip</a>>>><br>
><br>
> This is not taken from an original tape. It's<br>
> something I<br>
> reconstructed<br>
> from a disk containing early VAX/VMS source and<br>
> binaries. The<br>
> dates<br>
> indicate that this is earlier than VAX/VMS 1.5.<br>
> Hopefully someone can find an original at<br>
some point.<br>
><br>
> Matt<br>
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><br>
><br>
> Wonderful!<br>
><br>
><br>
> I now have VMS 1.0 up and running on simh<br>
VAX780. Does<br>
> anyone know<br>
> whereto find the Fortran installation tape for<br>
this system?<br>
><br>
><br>
> BTW, I also use a fine VT52 emulator I found on<br>
github.<br>
><br>
><br>
> /Wilm<br>
><br>
><br>
> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<br></div></div><span>
--<br>
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus<br>
|| on a psychedelic trip<br></span>
email: <a href="mailto:bqt@softjar.se" target="_blank">bqt@softjar.se</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:bqt@softjar.se" target="_blank">bqt@softjar.se</a>> || Reading murder books<span><br>
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Subject: Digest Footer<br>
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<br></span><span>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
End of Simh Digest, Vol 166, Issue 12<br>
******************************<wbr>*******<br>
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<br>
</span></blockquote><div class="m_-1592383772007193305HOEnZb"><div class="m_-1592383772007193305h5">
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus<br>
|| on a psychedelic trip<br>
email: <a href="mailto:bqt@softjar.se" target="_blank">bqt@softjar.se</a> || Reading murder books<br>
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol<br>
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