[Simh] RE: Older VAXen

Hittner, David T. david.hittner at ngc.com
Wed Jun 16 09:15:25 EDT 2004


Bob,

What did this point mean? Was the second VAX word supposed to be CVAX?
>- the CPU must support all the VAX instructions, not just the VAX subset.

For my information, what is the EDITPC instruction, and why is it so (argh!)?

---

Since I am relatively clueless here, couldn't
an initial VAX-11/780 simulation just start out using the existing PDP-11
UNIBUS I/O devices, and leave the MASSBUS I/O adapters for later (or never)
implementation?

I recall that a valid 780 configuration could have DZ11 terminal controllers,
UDA50 disk controllers, RPxx controllers, and a DEUNA ethernet controller,
all of which we have in the PDP11 simulation.

Would there be a SET CPU {780|CVAX}, along the lines of the PDP-11, and
have that command load the appropriate ROM, as well as set the appropriate
available devices?

If the community is really serious about simulating the VAX 11/780, you
could publish a list of required module changes and additions, and see
if people will volunteer to make it a reality. There's a lot of willing
coders out there, they just need design specs to code required modules.

It does seem odd that the preservation of computer history in SIMH doesn't
include Digital's "classic" VAX-11/780. It certainly would be interesting
to see a VAX 780 run at "warp speed", via PC simulation.

Dave


>-----Original Message-----
>From: simh-request at trailing-edge.com
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>Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 12:00 PM
>To: simh at trailing-edge.com
>Subject: Simh Digest, Vol 7, Issue 3
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>   2. Re: Re: Simh Digest, Vol 7, Issue 2 (Ethan Dicks)
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>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:40:39 +0000
>From: bsupnik at comcast.net
>Subject: [Simh] Re: Simh Digest, Vol 7, Issue 2
>To: simh at trailing-edge.com
>Message-ID:
>	
><061420041640.16952.40CDD506000EBB9F0000423822007507440507029F9
>A9C0D at comcast.net>
>	
>
>1. Older VAXen.
>
>A 780 or 750 would require substantial changes to the 
>simulator; indeed, it would be almost an entirely new 
>simulator.  In particular,
>
>- the CPU must support all the VAX instructions, not just the 
>VAX subset.  That includes decimal, obsolete character string, 
>H_floating, and EDITPC (argh!)  Right now, the CPU doesn't 
>have a capability to handle 128B operands in the specifier 
>decoding for H_floating.
>- the boot and console protocol is based on an external 
>microprocessor.  While that doesn't have to be explicitly 
>emulated, all the proper firmware has to be found.
>- the IO system is based on Unibus and Massbus peripherals.  
>The existing PDP-11 peripherals would require substantial 
>adaptation to run in the context of these adapters, and the 
>adapters themselves don't exist.
>
>2. 64b IO on Linux
>
>If you are using 3.2, then you edited the wrong module.  
>scp_tty.c is not part of 3.2; the function was moved to 
>sim_fio.c.  Check the release notes for 3.2, and you will see 
>that it says to unpack to a clean directory, because the 
>sources have been substantially reorganized.
>
>Put the edits into sim_fio.c, clean out the stuff that's no 
>longer in use, and see if that solves the problem.
>
>/Bob Supnik
>
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>    1. VAX simulation (Tim Newsham)
>>    2. Simh 64bit Support on Linux (Peter R. Trimmel)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:32:44 -1000 (HST)
>> From: Tim Newsham <newsham at lava.net>
>> Subject: [Simh] VAX simulation
>> To: simh at trailing-edge.com
>> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.58.0406131125390.9860 at malasada.lava.net>
>> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>> 
>> 
>> I'm interested in playing with some of the older VAX distributions
>> (32V, 4.1BSD, etc.).  I was wondering if it is possible to
>> configure Simh's VAX emulator to look like a more traditional
>> VAX.  The vaxmod_defs.h file says the configuration is based on
>> "the KA65x ("Mayfair") series of CVAX-based Qbus systems."
>> 
>> Is it possible to configure the system from a simh configuration
>> file to be more like an 11/750 or 11/780?  Has anyone done this,
>> and if so, do they have a configuration file?
>> 
>> Is it possible to adjust vaxmod_defs.h to make a more 11/750 or
>> 11/780-like system without otherwise changing the vax simulator?
>> 
>> Are the differences between the newer and older systems significant
>> enough that the simulator itself would need to be hacked 
>significantly?
>> 
>> Finally, are there any online resources that describe a typical
>> setup of an older machine in enough detail to achieve any of
>> the above?  What are the major differences between the mayfair
>> and the older machines (io addresses?  roms?  cpu differences?)?
>> 
>> Tim N.
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:26:47 +0200
>> From: "Peter R. Trimmel" <peter.trimmel at austrocontrol.at>
>> Subject: [Simh] Simh 64bit Support on Linux
>> To: simh at trailing-edge.com
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<CMEGKOKBJDIPAAHNGFJKOEIPCHAA.peter.trimmel at austrocontrol.at>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> 
>> I am running SIMH 3.2 (VAX emulation) on Debian 3.0 "Woody" 
>and need large
>> file support (LFS) to address disks bigger than 2GB (set rq0 
>RAUSER=8192 for
>> example).
>> 
>> Kernel (2.4.26), filesystem (ext3) and glibc have support 
>for large files on
>> this configuration. I also found 
>http://www.suse.de/~aj/linux_lfs.html which
>> provides some hints about LFS support and compilation macros.
>> 
>> I changed the CC flags to include
>> "-D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64" along with USE_INT64 and
>> USE_ADDR64, hacked scp_tty.c to include the fseek_ext() 
>function for linux
>> as well and recompiled from source.
>> 
>> I am now able to attach an 8GB disk to rq0. All file I/O 
>interfaces are
>> 64bit. The emulator is running fine up to the point where I 
>am trying to
>> access the 8GB disk: the simulator reports "RQ I/O error: 
>Invalid argument"
>> (err=-1) after fseek_ext and bails out.
>> 
>> I know that 64bit support IS supported by simh and is 
>working perfectly on
>> WIN32 systems. Any ideas what I might be missing? Has 
>anybody compiled simh
>> for disks > 2GB on linux (x86) or FreeBSD (x86) and got a working VAX
>> simulation?
>> 
>> 
>> Peter R. Trimmel
>> Austro Control GmbH.
>> Air Traffic Control & System Management
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
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>> 
>> End of Simh Digest, Vol 7, Issue 2
>> **********************************
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:29:06 +0000
>From: Ethan Dicks <dickset at amanda.spole.gov>
>Subject: Re: [Simh] Re: Simh Digest, Vol 7, Issue 2
>To: bsupnik at comcast.net
>Cc: simh at trailing-edge.com
>Message-ID: <20040615102906.GA23494 at bos7.spole.gov>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>On Mon, Jun 14, 2004 at 04:40:39PM +0000, bsupnik at comcast.net wrote:
>> 1. Older VAXen.
>> 
>> A 780 or 750 would require substantial changes to the 
>simulator; indeed, it
>> would be almost an entirely new simulator.  In particular,
>> 
>> - the CPU must support all the VAX instructions, not just 
>the VAX subset.  That
>> includes decimal, obsolete character string, H_floating, and 
>EDITPC (argh!) 
>
>Compatibility mode?
>
>> - the boot and console protocol is based on an external 
>microprocessor.  While
>> that doesn't have to be explicitly emulated, all the proper 
>firmware has to be
>> found.
>
>While the 11/780 and 11/730 had an external console and boot 
>processor, I don't
>recall seeing one in the 11/750.  Is it embedded on the 
>console board?  Certainly,
>the 11/780 and 11/730 were always soft-loaded, and the 11/750 
>normally came up
>on its own read-only WCS memory that could be boot-time or 
>run-time patched.
>
>Not to say it's easy or not easy, just recollecting what I can 
>of those machines.
>
>Disclaimer: I've owned KA750 and KA730 machines, and I've only 
>had user-level
>access on 11/780-class machines.
>
>I, too, would like to see an emulator for the older hardware, 
>but I can see
>how much harder that is than emulating a CVAX chip.
>
>-ethan
>
>-- 
>Ethan Dicks, A-130-S      Current South Pole Weather at 
>15-Jun-2004 10:20 Z
>South Pole Station
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>-98.8 F (-72.7 C)
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>686.5 mb (10380. ft)
>
>Ethan.Dicks at amanda.spole.gov     
>http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
>
>
>
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